Nothing says more about the latest rounds of layoffs than the question about H1B visa holders, and what will happen with them. Two big issues have cropped up since Microsoft announced its layoffs, starting a major conversation about local Seattle employees and foreign guest workers.
Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa asks what Microsoft could be doing to keep local workers employed, while Microsoft does its round of layoffs. While technically it is interesting that this question is being asked by the Senator of Iowa, and not Washington States own senators, what Grassley put on his web site hits a chord with many IT workers here in Seattle.
Microsoft employs thousands of people through the H-1B visa program. This temporary work visa program allows American companies and universities to employ temporary foreign guest workers who have the equivalent of a U.S. bachelor’s degree in a job category that is considered by the U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Services to be a “specialty occupation.” The purpose of the h-1b program is to help companies hire foreign guest workers on a temporary basis when there is not a sufficient qualified American workforce to meet those needs. However, the program is not intended to replace qualified American workers. Source: Senator Grassley’s Web Site
The Microsoft response posted on the Seattle Times’ web site and picked up by Techflash stated:
“We made the difficult decisions on which jobs would be eliminated based on a detailed assessment of our current and future business opportunities. The initial reductions we announced affect employees in a number of business units, and a significant number of the affected employees are foreign citizens working in this country on a visa. We recognize the human impact that our workforce reduction has on every affected worker and their families. For many of the employees here on a visa, being laid off means that they have to leave the country on very short notice, in many cases uprooting families and children. We care about all our employees, so we are providing services and support to try to help every affected worker, whether they are U.S. workers or foreign nationals working in this country on a visa.” Source: Seattle PI
What is interesting about this is that it does reflect that Microsoft is at least looking at those who hold the H1B visa as a potential source of cuts. Another source of cuts is going to be the contractor and contingent staff with numbers of cuts there ranging from 2000 to 6000 contractors being cut along the way. Some contracting companies also sponsor H1B visa holders who then work as contractors at Microsoft.
While some will say both sides are speaking BS (Check the comments on the Seattle Times), the problem is not so much one of who is being laid off, or protectionism for American workers, Microsoft has traditionally sought the best and brightest. While competition from Google and other companies has limited the pool of “best and brightest” locally and internationally, the real question is what defines “best and brightest”. Microsoft rolled the hard six on this one, their own no win scenario, there is no way to soften or otherwise mitigate the layoff news for those impacted. It does not matter if it H1B or local, everyone is equally impacted by the news.
Senator Grassley asked the question that needed to be asked, and Microsoft made the only real answer that they could so that they do not run into fair employment laws, but both sides leave people questioning how the layoff decisions were really made, and who was really impacted. Without statistics by breakdown, local, H1B, other, we will never really know the answer to the question, or the real meaning of Microsoft’s response.
Tags: h1b, visa, holder, h1b visa, fired, hired, lay off, laid off, Microsoft, senator Grassley, iowa, news
I think you missed the mark a bit – the real question isn’t what defines best and brightest, it’s whether or not we want a new (and very different) immigration policy that takes “best and brightest” into account at all. We don’t have that now, and it’s by choice, not by accident.
There are lots of ways this could be implemented, but implementation details aren’t that important without a fundamental rethink of what we want immigration to be like in the first place.
On the specific H1B visa, I think it’s pretty obvious that no company who lays off anyone should be allowed to sponsor new H1Bs for some time period (2 years?). The entire point of H1Bs are to fill skills shortages. They’re not supposed to be a backdoor way to get at the best-and-brightest crowd.
American workers need to be provided every opportunity to become the best and brightest through training and retraining. I work for a company that uses what I consider too many H1B workers. Kids fresh out of College from India are provided every opportunity to get experience in the US while I have seen US citizens completely blocked from the opportunity to access the same jobs. I have also seen the Indian companies over-staff projects with workers (8-10 workers) that used to be staffed by 2-3 US workers and take twice as long to generate poor quality work. In the IT world, more workers doesn’t equate to better quality. In my experience, the opposite is true. It is better to hire a few really great techs. I have met alot of really great US techs who are under employed, looking for work. We don’t need the high volume of H1Bs indicated by Microsoft – retrain the techs we already have.
Another issue is the very high turnover rate for offshore employees. You spend huge sums of money getting the 8-10 techs up to speed only to have the whole group go back ti India – along with the knowledge they gained. Then you have to start all over again. Someone needs to assess whether we are getting the value we think we are.
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Very Smart !!! I really have seen poor Indian H1B workers. But I have also seen dummy US workers(Freshers/Experienced) who really watch Indians working and doesnt have any stuff. When you talk about some H1B’s who has poor performance, then you might have seen the fake people. And when you talk about offshore, you may be right. Again, that depends on which company you talk about. You cannot comment on all the Indian offshores. The multi talented H1B workers from India can no way be a match with US workers, who focus on any one thing sometimes only one thing. There are really great US workers who has extra ordinary talent. I agree. But you cannot say only they do quality work. Hope you understand.
Someone mentioned it is important to raise the H1b quota.In my personal opinion,it doesn’t make sense to raise quota. It is very important to *REFORM* the H1b system so that folks on H1b visa don’t have to leave the country when they’re laid off .It is also important to make them less dependent on their employers to prevent abuse.
Currently,too many are here who are not able to do what they want or they’re working well below their capabilities because of limitations of the H1b system.
There are a few things the government can do:
* Give them green cards after they pay taxes for a certain number of years.
* Allow them independence after they work for an employer for a certain period.
* Allow them to start a business or a company, invent or create technology while being on a work visa. Currently,it is not possible due to limitations of the H1b visa system.
* Allow them to stay and change jobs if they’re laid off.
The h1-b visa system is broken. It needs to be repaired urgently.The H1b system is designed in a such a way that it is against them and it is a “take it or leave it” visa. Please don’t forget that H1bs are REAL people LIVING in America and they deserve to be treated under the laws of constitution which apply to citizens.It doesn’t matter whether they are citizens are not .They are living in America and are part of the community wherever they are.Most Americans don’t really get this.You know what, Most Americans are psyched that they have freedom and they don’t realize that H1b folks don’t have any freedom. Why are you content with the system? Do you want to have double standards for yourself and others?
There are many other countries such as Germany which are highly attractive for Engineers. One advantage of Germany is that German government doesn’t treat its engineers or workers (citizens or not) as commodities and throw them away when they’re laid off. Everyone in Germany is protected by laws, whether they’re citizens or not.
President Obama mentioned he is going to reform the system and allow skilled workers to get permanent residence.We’ll have to wait and see.
Everyone on H1b visa and supporters of H1b visas might consider the above suggestions and write to your local senators , goverment officials with suggestions for H1b visa reform.
A,
You are absolutely correct. The H1-b visa program is rigged to give the advantage to corporate America.
That said, I don’t know of any H1-b holders who had their arms twisted to participate in the program. They take American jobs knowing full well what the conditions are and in some cases with the knowledge that they are less qualified than American applicants.
So, while the proper thing to do is level the playing field for H1-bs and citizens as you suggest, I’m instead going to be selfish for a change and suggest we eliminate this program and others like it.
I also think system is broken.If you fire local people,why you need to bring new people from overseas?This is my question.Microsoft says we need qualified talent but most of H1B visa holders are just graduated from college and they need to be trained from companies they hire.I saw these kind of things.
I would rather thing,company train local people to fit their position their need.Coporate America skipping education for local graduate and then hiring guest workers from overseas sounds oxy-moran to me.
My husband, a US citizen, with 20 years experience, who has studied practically everyday of his professional life to keep his skills current, was laid off by a major financial company and was immediately replaced by two low payed H1B workers.
He recently had an “interview” at a very large, well known American technology company where he sat through a four hour technical test where he was the ONLY U.S. citizen among 200 H1B applicants also being “interviewed”. Although he scored in the top 8, he was eliminated from consideration without explanation. Under the H1B program, an employer needs to demonstrate that it can not find an qualified US citizen or permanent resident to fill the position. The definition of qualified is that the person must meet the minimum qualifications for the job. How can someone who scores in the top 8%
of 200 (who had been selected from an initial pool of 1000 applicants) not
be minimally qualified?
WAKE UP America!!! Instead of just shipping our technology jobs overseas in droves, we
now are ensuring that highly qualifed U.S. citizens can not even work in their own country. And, yes this is our country, and we need to protect our CITIZENS’ right to work
and care for their families as a first priority. A freeze should be put on the H1B program and any U.S. company that receives bailout money should be required to hire qualified US citizens or permanent residents for any positions that are funded by bailout money. And if you think it’s only technology jobs, you’re sadly mistaken…it’s HR jobs, Marketing jobs, Finanical analyst jobs, Insurance jobs …YOUR JOB!
This is a tough, tough issue. It is not a question of ‘Indian workers versus U.S. workers’ (or for that matter – ‘Chinese’ or ‘Irish’ or whatever workers versus U.S. workers…).
It is a question of how U.S. companies feel they can accomplish project completion in a) the fastest and b) the most cost-effective method.
If the company figures out that they can do it with a U.S. consulting firm (e.g. IBM Global Services), then they go ahead with the move. If they find that an Indian or Israeli or Irish company can do the same project at a lower (MUCH lower cost), they are fully justified in handing the project to such outfits. The nature of such projects involves bringing teams of workers onsite – via the H1-B or similar temporary worker programs.
I’ve worked significantly with I.T. workers of all nationalities and colors – and there is no general rule that can be applied – except that there are good workers and bad workers in every team that you put together – regardless of race, nationality. Given this truism – should a company then settle for $300 hourly workers (IBM Global, Accenture etc.) – or have the same skills provided by a $100-$150 hourly worker (foreign consulting firms).
And once and for all – the quality of work done by foreign workers is in no way inferior to the work done by U.S. workers. It is sad and unfortunate to make such generalizations – when some of the brightest workhorses in America came from overseas (founders of Yahoo, Google, Sun, Intel, top product developers at Microsoft and Oracle – to name a few). EVERY single one of these people went through the H1 process before getting a green-card to enable them to start their own business.
I agree with A.
Recently at CNBC Larry Kudlow vehemently argued in favor of H1B Quotas to be increased. He called republicans’ initiative to curb H1b quota a stupid mistake.
This is disgusting. Larry and his supporters think that you can maintain global competitiveness by hiring foreign workers who essentially gain underground training in sweat shops of Indian owned IT contracting companies and on the job getting paid $13-30/hr (if at all).
We have in America the best of the best Universities in the World. So are all our domestic grads fools? Quite an assumption. And the foreign students from the same universities are ready to work for any wage just to gain experience and undercut jobs from experienced and qualified local candidates who deserve to get paid much more.
Yet the argument is that we need more foreign workers. Today who needs to hire IT people when the business is down to near zero. Didn’t you hear about 651k jobs lost last month, part of which are IT jobs. Companies today are able to fire established and experienced IT workers BECAUSE they are readily substituted by less than half as expensive H1B workers.
These are part of the new jobs being created, you see.
To see the brutality of reality just look at the Craigslist Resume section. People are begging to get any job or else they will be on streets. Now look at the Jobs section, which is still largely dominated by contracting company recruiters. They advertise 7-10 years of experience in many of the IT areas offering $13-30/hr which used to command $40-$90/hr.
So, you still think America needs more foreign workers? If the demand is high why are the prices (wages/rate) falling???
If we need foreign workers here in US, then why is there a need to prevent out-sourcing of jobs. Clearly the need to prevent outsourcing and continuing to allow H1B workers or increasing H1B quota are contradictory and is against the common wisdom.
Americans are being driven out of jobs by these low cost external workers. There are plenty of smart Americans who can and are willing to work hard and better. Dems who are supporting H1B Quota increase are truly the face of hypocrisy and possibly world class stupidity.
While not the same as the I.T. sector, this article captures some of the same arguments about why foreign-born scientists/engineers are important to the U.S.
http://www7.nationalacademies.org/ocga/testimony/Importance_of_Foreign_Scientists_and_Engineers_to_US.asp
Just as inbreeding cultivates retardation…. so is lake of immigration. Problems are solved from a new prespective. I see mots people are upset without a truely valid resason.
I see that someone was upset that her husband was among the top8% and still did not get the job. The sour truth is that he is not the top 1%. If he is top 8% in a pool of less than bright people… thats no measure of anyone intel.
Any defining tech engin in the US has be powered by foreign born talent. Look at the last 100 years…….
Americans works are often hardworking but not necessarily smart working. Ths result in huge coporate waste. At a big company (Name with held) in NY, by 5pm all us workers are gone…. you see the guys from India and other countries are still in the office work with out any extra incentive to get the things done. Projects have deadline and time to market is vital to survie. These guys make sure that work is done. If things are not done on time and in budget, there will not be any compnaies opperation to hire anyone, local or internation. So next time you see a foreign worker, say thanks…. you don’t know whoes job and retirement he might be saving…….
This is the ant and the cricket fairy tale…With the only difference being that ants are asked to leave…Why are these guys being targeted for no fault of theirs?
America had no problem having foreign workers immigrate because of which your great grand parents came over to this country and you guys don’t like immigrants?? Weird!!! We call this country the land of Immigrants and the land of opportunity, then why all these accusations? Our Law says that it is not right to discriminate based on any factor and you are all wanting Corporate America to discriminate?
It is such a shame to see our fellow country men blaming others for their failures. It is this very same group of people behind most of the successful companies in USA and making America technologically advanced in the world. It is the same talent pool that we counted on for so many years, generating thousands of jobs for so called second generation Americans. And because we are in a phase of recession, we start blaming them for taking away american jobs and people are blabbering about protectionism?
C’mon people, start being sensible in what you are talking. Who is in debt? Who are the people who defaulted their mortgages? Which group of people screwed up the Wall Street because of which we are seeing this day? Whose fault is it that we are in a big financial crunch today? You all need to wake up and address issues that caused this problem and blame each other and create a state of chaos…
Don’t blame microsoft for hiring H1bs or outsourcing work to a different country. This is Corporate America and they are doing what they think is the best thing to do to save money for their company. What are you all doing to save money?? Apply for more credit cards and mortgages which are above and beyond your capability to repay and default payments? Where are American ethics gone when our people have been committing this mistake over and over for the past so many decades?
If you have a job, be glad you have one. If you have been laid off because of a result of a re org, this is an opportunity for self realization and grow as a person and explore more opportunities and try to find a job. Don’t try to be a loser by blaming others for what to you lost.
Grow up and be a responsible and a sensible Human being first before you call yourself a citizen of some country…
Indians from Delhi lie on their h1b visa application, education, and work experience. Once they come here to work for the u.s. company, they ask their american coworkers for training and how to do their job. and that’s the truth ladies and gentlemen.
With the current unemployment rate of 10.2% we need to eliminate the H1B Visa program. If a company decides to ship it’s IT jobs overseas then so be it. Have the IRS change the tax codes where you do not get to write of IT expenditures overseas and you pay full taxes on the amount you spend in India. Also, if a company decides to leave the USA in order to avoid this type of action by the USA then they should be banned from doing any form of business in the USA as we have done with CUBA. However, lobbyists in Washington would not allow this to happen because they have absolute control over everything that passes through Congress. Big business controls our government and always will. Pathetic, but true.
At this time, with the current economic situation, no employer should be hiring foreign workers – that means those on the H1B Visa program or any other Visa program that allows non-U.S. citizens or Green Card holders to take jobs away from citizens of this country. This also means that we should not be hiring the undocumented Mexicans for day laborer jobs. There are plenty of American citizens who are willing and able to do those jobs these days. Those days when our people were “too good” to do yard work or construction are gone now. People will do anything to have a job here in the U.S. I agree with Eric Talbott that companies that outsource their jobs should be banned (or at least taxed heavily). When our citizens can’t find work because our corporations are sending the jobs overseas, our tax base is being eroded. Our federal and state governments can no longer fund services for our people. If you really want to do something to help, all of us need to call and write our legislators to complain about this. If enough people will do this – and not just keep their complaints to themselves – then we can get something done. Remember, the lobbyists are there. They are talking to the legislators. Of course, they are wining and dining them, but they don’t have the votes. We do.